Accident Review Global Express Dual Engine Out

Excellent master. Tks for the teaching!!!

I can't sit here and say anything good about these pilots' efforts. When you have 43,000 feet to play with and numerous safe airfields well within a proper glide, let alone powered flight from one engine if you have taken the time to assess the situation, it's yours to crash. My preference is to pull both back to idle, let them stabilize while doing my best to make sure nothing else is happening, and assess the engine parameters and error messages. I am sure they had a strong preference to get it under control with that vibration, and it's clear that it could panic someone, but that's why you have to stop and breathe a moment. Honestly, if it's so bad you can't spare that much time, you're probably already dead.

Flown piston twins, never jet powered ones. Doesn´t the pilot notice an jaw movement into the bad engine or does the autopilot counteract that??

I'm not a pilot but have been manufacturing, testing and supporting business jet engines for 35 years. This is a very sad story but as Scott pointed out, the pilots need to keep calm and don't panic. When you have one engine operational, you need to be absolutely sure you are shutting down the correct engine before taking action. This is a case where, unfortunately, that did not happen.

Ok so you are about my age and as tech savvy as a 13-year-old kid . I would be doing that with Chalk and a chalkboard

Maybe they don’t want you to have all the CVR audio

Please increase your recording volume

In the medical field we say, in an emergency, take your own pulse first, then check the patient's pulse. That pause to clear your head is a difference maker.

New idea, no joke! All commercial pilots should be required to have a glider pilot’s License with a current rating. Then we can be reassured that they actually know how to fly an airplane.

I wonder if their command told them to try for the 230 mile field.

THE EXPLANTION IS BRILIANTLY EXPLAINED BUT ON THE MANUFACTURERS OVERSIGHT OF THIS SIMPLE TO PREVENT SITUATION IS ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLR SHAME ON THEM

One big mistake..forgiven....TWO!! you are dead mate. 1)wrong engine I.D 2)wrong crash land site.

Excellent presentation! Shutting down the wrong engine in a situation like this has happened in a number of other past accidents. My instructors always advised me to count to 10 before taking action, furthermore both pilots should agree on which engine to shut down with the pilot flying guarding the good engine start lever.

Wow it seems like it was a preventable outcome and this makes the loss of life so much more tragic. RIP to the crew

Scott, well done analysis. I'm sure you meant "engine pressure ratio" @ 10:50

Hey Scott, just subscribed after watching this. I currently fly the Global and in fact, used to fly serial number 9359. I see the accident aircraft was 9358. As someone with a few thousand hours in these aircraft, I would say that the video is technically correct and your assessment was spot on. I read the accident report when it was released and felt so sorry for these guys. What a terrible situation to be in and yet survivable. Great video!

Well briefed. I am intimately involved with BACN. Your synopsis obviously followed the AIB report that was just recently released. It’s hard to look at an event like this as a pilot and not play Monday morning quarterback. There appears to have been many fatal mistakes made in an extremely short period, and from what most pilots would consider a very high altitude which in most cases is a pilots friend. After all altitude above you is useless in an emergency situation. This is a sad reminder that even the best pilots can make fatal mistakes.

This is the first time I have seen your channel and I love air crash investigations and follow them a lot. I also appreciate the unbiased information without putting down the servicemen who lost their lives. Everything you have said can help general aviators, like me as well as men and women that fly the commercial and military men and women. Keep it up!

Scott, you make the best videos. You explain it in such a way that even a non pilot such as myself can understand and enjoy, Thanks sir.

odd how the approximate flight path forms a giant question mark

It is a real shame that they had two places to go to which could have saved them.

Excellent. Subscribed!

FADEC really made this confusing for the crew.

Marrying the throttles with an engine failure is NOT a normal procedure! I have 30,000 hours including 34 years of airline experience and have never seen this done. I have also been a current and active flight instructor for the past 51 years with thousands of hours teaching in multi engine airplanes from the DC-3 to the B-767 and never saw Or did this. With an engine failure, you slowly retard the suspected engine and if there is no change in the yawing tendency, then you have identified the correct engine. Having both thrust levers equal confuses the issue of which engine has failed.

Thank you Hello from PicoRivera where planes landing at LAX cross over my house all day long

I have had engine out but also have had gliding experience so, there was no need to panic because you were trained in the 1st place to get it down safely. I never had another engine to rely on so just like The Miracle on the Hudson, I firmly believe so many hours controlled engine-less would benefit a lot of pilots!

C.L.E.A.R. model. Clarify, Look, Evaluate, Act, "Reassess". Most airlines use this or something like this to help, especially after the startle and knee jerk reactions. Monday morning quarterback comment. Sorry. Reassess can 'sometimes' get rid of the tunnel vision especially with all the automation and failure presentation software rules.

I am a private pilot who has had a complete engine failure on departure. It was as taught. Upon first power change it suddenly got very quiet and the big fan out front was now a windmill. Long story shirt I made it back to the runway safe and sound. I can attest that the training kicked in and saved the day. But I had it easy. Only one engine. It makes it easy to figure out which one caged. This tells me technology is very cool and works great... until it doesn't. Aviate, navigate, communicate. It works. It seems these poor guys had to much information and it proved very difficult to follow this instruction. My condolences to their families and friends.

Excellent video and the breakout of events in addition to the fail-down sequences you explained were above and beyond. You’ve got a new subscriber! Thanks again. Great video.

Cause then was a failure to identify the bad engine and ended up shutting down the wrong engine..

That is how they bring back there drugs that are being grown there!

Excellent analysis and great time to remember the basics during an emergency!

I noticed the same product placement on another aviation Chanel.

Such an excellent presentation and analysis, thanks!

I guess when you have a twin ,in my case the most important thing is to practice engine failure. I’ve lost power in 2 single engine Pipers. It was fast n easy to figure . Of course I’m lucky to be here but my training was well remembered. 1st fly the plane, relax n think Of emergency location , n then check list with associated instruments showing a failure.

Interesting. Did I miss something? The FADEC message does not say which engine it shutdown.

Gunny you do these reports with compassion and excellent advice. Thank you from a non-pilot who learns from you.

Nice video. You seem a little hard on those guys though toward the end of the video. You say "the main issue here in my view is the crew jumped to a conclusion with lightning speed." Though that may be true, Pretty easy at zero airspeed sitting on terra firma to say what they should have done. Yes, it seems as though they made some hasty decisions, and had some expectation bias which led them to have limited options in the end. I have been through recurrent (ground school) with a few guys from that wing. They seemed very knowledgeable. I know I will try and learn from their loss. Being in the Global since 2004, I seem to learn or re-learn something new every training event. I suspect catastrophic fan failures will soon be on the syllabus. Looking forward to some of your other videos.

I know it wouldn't have made any difference in this example as they never considered the possibility they had shut down the wrong engine however, where its available, I think pilot training should prioritize an APU start over air start just to conserve that vital energy. It could have made a difference in this case and they'd still be alive

As a glider pilot I find this accident to be particularly dismaying. At 43,000 the crew had more than enough energy to affect a safe landing at an appropriate airport. Perhaps the air force should consider mandatory glider training .

Great video about a sad subject. I hope many can learn from their loss, and you video will definitely help. Keep up the great work, I’ve subscribed and look forward to many more videos.

👍👌🙏 AWESOME REPORT!!!!!😍😍😍😍😍 THANK YOU

Should there be a VIB indication in the N1 circle on the faulty engine ? Great video.

Great info as always. Boy that brought back memories, "the 1st thing you do is wind your watch." Sad and unfortunate mistakes. Sounds like you were in their heads. Tragic mistakes, RIP.

I learn from you every time Scott! Please continue doing your great work!

When I first learned to operate a newer global I was always curious to see what would happen in an emergency situation. I was always concerned that while I was still manually going through the emergency shutdowns or other procedures, I was always concerned about some sort of logic disagrees or something since the plane actually does a lot of the procedures on it’s own. But what I was always told was try to beat the computer. You won’t get into a logic disagree or cause issues. Theoretically that’s true and I was thankful to never be in a position to find out for real but I always wondered if the system wouldn’t unintentionally have issues. I was always a fan of the Crj an challengers nothing fancy. just reliable workhorses. You sld have seen us doing Vibe testing in the C-series. That was interesting imputing crazy hi frequency’s directly into individual pcu to shake the stabs and flight controls since they were our first fly by wire. Didn’t need a giant shaker stand like for the Lear 85.

I helped build this plane. I even designed and special process and procedures for aluminum cladding the big wing to body fairings from absorbing some of all the radio waves. We actually did a crj also. This was my favorite one we did even tho it’s the least interesting to look at but that’s precisely why I liked this one in particular. We did a lot of fan removal and inspection with rolls because the vibe issues and certain sustained power settings. I was heartbroken to hear the plane and crew was lost. We knew how important these planes were and put a great deal of effort and pride into them. Osamas take down being broadcast in real time to the White House thanks to one of these guys just to put into prospective the importance of these aircraft an the connectivity this plane provides. God bless the crew and god speed. You will always be hero’s to me anyway.

Thanks Scott, Yes many lessons reinforced analyzing this tragedy. Basics of flight school 101 seemed to be ignored with this event. Condolences to the families and friends. Rolls-Royce BR710 compressors have a remarkable reliability record and throwing a blade is rare but not unheard of. That sort of vibration that the crew experienced must have been horrific. I can only imagine that it's amazing it didn't rip the nacelle off it's mount. Very unexpected and disorienting I'm sure. A vibration that made it hard to read the gages??? It would be welcomed to know the maintenance history of the propulsion units. Seems the aviation culture I was trained in and the one existing today are two different things. Originally posted by UNITED STATES AIR FORCE AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION BOARD REPORT The E-11A initial training program is accomplished by CAE, a civilian company, in Dallas, Texas (Tab R-12.5 to R-12.7). Mission Qualification Training is completed in AFG, in conjunction with operational missions (Tab R-12.5 to R-12.7). Both pilots completed the initial training as stated above (Tab DD-16). Dual engine out recovery/landing scenarios are not practiced as part of the formal syllabus, though some E-11A pilots reported accomplishing them outside the syllabus (Tabs V-3.7, V-6.8, V-11.8, and V-22.7). Further, dual engine out scenarios were considered by many pilots to be improbable and were not frequently discussed (Tabs V-3.8, V-7.7, V-22.7, V- 25.14, and V-26.10)

top marks brother

Competence incarnate. Incredibly calm voice, alien to any showmanship. I'm not a pilot, but would follow Scott Perdue to the end of the world!

These are lessons that are just as useful in everyday life as they are in the air.

Sooo wait, WHAT?? Why, if the right engine was PERFECTLY good, were they having any problem at all with starting it? You didn't address that AT ALL or I overlooked it (that's a possibility I guess).

Very Good review- Thank You - I spent a Year in Afghanistan - Tremendous flying, but always kept in mind the Terrain and Weather...Thank You Sir !

Back in the day, there was a flight engineer to help sort stuff out. Not a bad idea it seems.

Scott,,, You Are So Good,,,

What a fantastic presentation. Just liked and subscribed. This appears to be a classic case of inexperience and lack of airmanship. 1000 hours and already a training captain seems awfully low in the experience field and at that level of knowledge, it is always hard to tell what actions will be taken during an emergency situation. Knee-jerk reactions are often wrong, as seen evident in the Atlas crash into Trinity Bay. I strongly believe that if there were a more experienced crew, this would have resulted in the Right Hand Motor being restarted, and a successful landing achieved.

Very poor pilots, the A/C yawed and the pilot/s corrected that with rudder, that's not rocket science to know which one!

If I understood correctly, a FADEC FAIL always results in an automatic shutdown? Seems like it would be a good idea to show the FADEC FAIL annunciation right on the EPR or N1 gauge instead of or in addition to the annunciation box? After all, it’s only software.

I would say bad gas

Well done rules are ... engine fail with potential structural damage ... fly divert... work the problem...maximize speed lift and glide.. no APU??? YIKES

Great video! When things go bad, Aviate, Navigate, communicate... words to live by!

Thanks for sharing your views and expertise.

EPR is engine pressure ratio -not exhaust pressure ratio

Quick comments: I have had a similar situation happening to me. B737-400 150 pax, 4 stewardesses, 2 persons on jump seats in the cabin, 2 colleagues on jump seat in the cockpit. Climbing through 10000’ there was a large bang, you heard the passengeres scream through the closed cockpit door, and then the vibrations that were so severe that the instruments was impossible to read. Both the copilot and I thought we had had a midair collision of some sort. I felt the airplane yawed slightly to the right and told the copilot we should go for the engine seizure checklist, Right engine. We agreed that this must be our best guess and followed the checklist. Upon cutting the fuel to the right engine all vibrations more or less stopped and we diverted and made an uneventful single engine landing. Takeaways: The control lever to the inlet vanes of the starboard engine broke, resulting in a massive turbine rupture. This caused the vibrations. The vibrations were so intense making the instruments more or less useless. Our diagnosis of the situation was correct and the procedures worked. But calling the order to stop the right engine in favour of the left was a hard one and includede a bit of good fortune, since the instruments that we normally trust was unavailable to us. There is the chance that the Global Express crew might have faced the same dilemma with virtually no readable instruments. However after having shut down both engines, there probably was ample time to reconsider and start the good one again?

stupid question: would not had the landing gear absorbed some of the impact force had it been deployed?

Who are the dweebs that thumbs down this vid??? Great work.

Scott, excellent analysis of a bad situation. Lesson learned...don't rush.

Your analysis gives hope that they didn't die in vain. Lots of confidence even with ZERO ENGINES RUNNING! Regardless of engine out procedural details for the type, basic strategy for any type doesn't change -- "fly the plane - best glide" head toward a field (Kabul), then work the problem. You can orbit the field until problem resolved or land. In this case, the basic strategy would have saved the situation and overcome the opportunities that were missed. Shame to loose two good men in a flyable plane...

That’s the same thing the B-17 pilot did in the other crash..shit down the wrong engine

Great analysis. Sad story. These pilots were doing their mission, and *unfortunately* made choices that assisted in their own demise. This reminds me a bit of the Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701 CRJ-200 incident in 2004. in the Global Express situation the initial "domino" was the loss of a fan blade... The Pinnacle pilots instigated the beginnings of their own demise by hot-dogging the CRJ-200 (high G climbs at full throttle to hit FL410) which caused their "dual engine failure". The similarities: BOTH tried air-starts (losing precious energy.) BOTH either did not attempt to restart the APU or did it too late to make a difference. BOTH had plenty of altitude and energy at the beginning of the incident to have sufficient glide slope to reach MULTIPLE suitable runways. Fancy pretty digital screens are great - until they aren't. I'd imagine many pilots would "freak out" at that laundry list of errors displayed on that screen. Even after practicing failures in a Sim, I imagine it's quite different when presented with the "real world situation." I have some old pilot friends who reiterate this mantra often: "Aviate, navigate, communicate."

RIP. thank you ,well done video

Well done, Scott!🇺🇸

Did they get a vibe indication?

I knew a guy who flew that mission.

Damn, they should have got the r engine started...

I wouldn't necessarily consider an instructor pilot as being a good thing. While there are many very experienced ones out there, many of whom have retired from flying or lost their medical, etc. Many of the training centers hire non-rated, unexperienced pilots to work as instructors. One who worked at a training center North of the US border at a well known training center, who got hired to work on the CL605 that my wife was the Flight Attendant on, practically killed her when he attempted to land in KPDK. He approached too fast and touched down halfway down the runway, then executed a go-around AFTER he had deployed the thrust reverser. Luckily the engines spooled up enough for them to get airborne, but they almost hit the trees at the end of the runway. Thank goodness she left that job.

After reading the report it’s unclear to me why fuel flow for the left engine wasn’t indicating 0 if the EEC commanded an auto shut down. If the crew did nothing at all they would have been in a more familiar engine out situation but the temptation to react must have been overwhelming. The reason CVR data isn’t available is because the impact switch was triggered. As far as the CVR was concerned, the aircraft crashed. They were on one violent ride. Thanks Captain.

I was taught to stop flying into the problem declare a Mayday as soon as possible and get the plane to the closest airport no matter how little the problem.

Outstanding analysis. Sad outcome.

47

Hi. Like you, I have read in detail the 42 page USAF Accident Report. I did so during my annual Global Express recurrent last month at CAE Dubai. I'm a Training Captain on the Global with 12 years experience on type. I'm also ex-military, former British Army helicopter and fixed-wing instructor. Your briefing puts the report into visual context extremely well. Thank you. However, I do think we need to clarify a few areas. You mentioned the process of matching the power levers following an engine failure. There has to be a caveat to that. It can only be done once the failed engine has been correctly identified. Matching the levers can actually compound the confusion. I also have a concern about this not being in line with the QRH drills to secure the engine. Any engine failure or fire drill should always follow the following initial sequence: CONTROL IDENTIFY CONFIRM That sequence also forces a slowing down of the processes and helps with the analysis. Whilst in the sim last month we looked at an engine failure on final approach. With both engines initially on a low power setting for the approach, an engine failure is still noticeable. What is tricky is identifying the correct engine. It has to be a very systematic approach to identifying the failed engine, following the above 3 processes. As far as we can tell, in this particular accident the left engine failed in a climb. The crew probably leveled off and then appear to have done a very quick engine response check. The left engine N1 was indicating 80 to 90+ %. This would have been very misleading. There was only the Amber left FADEC Fail message. There were extreme levels of vibration and following the incorrect shutdown of the right engine, the RAT deployment would also produce high noise levels and further vibration. Any attempted windmill airstart would appear to have been on the failed left engine. It's not going to happen; that engine was dead. CAE and Bombardier advocate the use of the Quick reference checklist for immediate actions. There are no longer any "Memory Items". Again, had the crew used the quick reference card, they have been forced to slow down a little, which arguably might have helped control their obvious and understandable "Startle Response". The standard double-engine failure on the Global Express is to maintain height as speed is reduced to a target indicated speed of 200 knots; then drift down. APU on below 37,000 ft. If, for whatever reason the APU cannot be started then the nose has to lowered and aircraft accelerated to 250+ for a windmill start. That will increase the loss of height. AVIATE NAVIGATE COMMUNICATE An accident like this is very sobering. It is easy to pass judgement, but maybe we should all take stock and ask ourselves how would we have dealt with something so unexpected and disorientating? Operators should also consider what we train for in the Sim. EFATO at or above V1 is standard. What about the non-standard? Final approach, or in the cruise? It wasn't that long ago a BA 777 had a dual engine flameout on short finals to Heathrow. That was due to ice contamination of the fuel. Glide approach to a touchdown short of the threshold, but they got away with it. How do we brief our departures, cruise, arrivals and contingencies? Nearest en route diversions etc? Fly safe.

CREW F*CKED UP

The hero syndrome.

Some big time pooch screwing that cost taxpayers big $$

I had a dual flame out at FL390 Back in the eights Lear 24, N141PJ

I'm not a pilot but, I love videos like this. They've always interested me. Really well done!

Scott, the Malaysia Airlines flight 370 disappearance has it's 7th anniversary next month and I would like to request your analysis of that event.

Good analysis Scott. As always in these emergencies, plan for the worst and hope for the best outcome. Apart from their incorrect engine problem analysis their not assuming the best glide speed and pointing the aircraft towards a Suitable airport was their biggest error.

Excellent, easy to follow analysis as always

I was flying from LAX to YYC in a DA200 at FL350 when a mid span dampener on the left fan let go. Just myself and the other pilot and engineer on board. The engineer was in the back lavatory when it happened. There was a great big bang and he came running up the aisle with eyes as big as an owl. In the cockpit, the only indication was a rise in temperature and N2. We waited to see if there were any other changes but not much changed and were ready if there was a fire. Knowing if we had to shut it down we would have little problem making YYC so we just carefully monitored it. After landing the engineers had a look in the left engine. When the first mid span dampener let go, due to gyroscopic precession, the corresponding ones on the blades at 90, 180 and 270 degrees also had let go. All those pieces went through that engine and made it look like a chewed corn cob. Those ATF-3s were some tough engine. Designed to take a 20lb bird strike.

42k feet can you be any higher for an engine out

So, why did the engines, or engine throw the blade in the first place,.....any ideals?

4 years ago I'd think was just another accident. Today I wonder if these two pilots saw something they shouldn't have and were silenced. There are billions in drugs getting pumped out of Afghanistan and Iran-Contra proved the military is capable of running drugs. At this point in American History anything's possible, there is an epidemic of corruption within the US Military.

Maybe give them the engine mismanagement but not choosing the nearest divert field is just bizarre.

Pearl engines?

Love your work. Do us a favor and look at the sound quality. It often sounds like you’re whispering and speaking very low. Could it be the acoustics in the hangar?

Shock, suprise ❌ fear ❌ Oh S - IT.

I like you calm, steady and informative presentation. Others tend to get extremely agitated talking though incidents and blaming others (NTSB, usually). Subscribed!

I wish all bloggers would wear a lapel microphone. Your sound is superb

Appreciate the review. I fly a Baron and have never been taught the concept of marrying throttles in engine out practice. Is that something that should be considered? Also, I did a FS Baron training last fall (learned a lot) and my instructor had a different routine for verification of which engine. Instead of slowly retarding the throttle of “dead engine” he rapidly retarded and immediately advanced. I thought it a good idea. What are your thoughts?